AnonymousBy an edhat reader
On Friday the Public Health Department issued another order clarifying what businesses need to do to stay in business. A “Social Distancing Protocol” is required for any business that is open, it requires an employee must monitor and enforce compliance at all times.
None of these protocols require people to wear a mask to enter the business. Why are masks not required? And why do people still refuse to wear a mask?
If someone isn’t wearing a mask I avoid them like the plague.
Coolio – why? It doesn’t mean they have it.
and yet it was decided to not include any mention of “masks for the public” in the Public Health Order’s “Social distancing guidelines”.
i guess the city also knows better than the scientists?
the only enforcement is Social Enforcement. and that goes both ways. you might have to visit a different area of town that shares your values.
Ginger, I think your information has some merit but claiming face coverings do “almost NOTHING” is wrong and irresponsible. Masks, even face coverings DO help protect you from contracting the virus when combined with other basic precautions. The idea behind them requires cooperation. If everyone had at least a basic face covering it would prevent droplets from wandering randomly through their range (usually about 3 feet but that depends on the force with which they were ejected and the present airflow) N95 masks are better than basic face cloths but the ones with the exhalation valve are only protective of the wearer, not everyone else as they don’t filter exhaled air. Remember, we’re not talking about nebulized nerve agents here, the conventional wisdom is droplet precautions. Touching your mask isn’t a cardinal sin, this isn’t a sterile environment. I agree that whatever face coverings one uses should be cleaned regularly and don’t need to be worn unless you are likely to be in relative close quarters with others or handling materials that will be passed along (like a food delivery driver) but just like wearing a seatbelt even when you “know” you won’t crash, the odds are in favor of everyone doing it just in case..
11:25 – I don’t think “the scientists” ever said we need to be wearing masks. In fact, for a long time they recommended AGAINST it. And no one thinks it’s “a right” to infect others, that’s just silly. Some people are arguing that it is their right to do what they want with their bodies….which is equally as silly when it comes from those very same people who lobby and fight to take that very same right away from women!
EXACTLY.
Wearing a face covering (those non N95 things) increases the chance of catching covid19. You need to wash your hands first. Put on a clean/new one each time and wash your hands before removing it.
I’m just really worried about that one infected person who gets near me not wearing a mask and sneezes or coughs. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I know some companies which have long required wearing masks for personal protection (paint, metal grinding operations) and there are a surprising number of people who will suffer anxiety disorders when forced to wear a mask. A business owner may be opening themselves to an ADA lawsuit if they discriminate against public non-mask wearers.
I for one can’t stand wearing a mask and won’t unless it means I can’t go in the store. I can’t breathe and it gives me anxiety. A big thanks to all the stores that allow the individual the choice to wear one or not.
I was shopping at Costco recently and a younger man who appeared to be a foreign student started coughing as passed near him with my cart. Thank goodness he was wearing a mask as was I and most responsible shoppers.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but most masks do not contain coughs or sneezes. That quick expression of air volume is too much for most masks to filter without losing their seal.
I only wear a mask if it is required. For food establishments (e.g., grocery stores and restaurants), I understand why a mask is required because no one wants to purchase germy, infected food. But everywhere else – especially outside – I see no need for it when social distancing is far more effective.
One study examined the effect of masks on seasonal coronaviruses (which cause many cases of the common cold) and found that surgical masks are helpful at reducing how much virus a sick person spreads. The other looked particularly at SARS-CoV-2 and found no effect of either surgical or fabric masks on reducing virus spread, but only had four participants and used a crude measure of viral spread.
The biggest point you commenters are missing about masks is that the majority of people infected with COVID-19 will not have any symptoms or will have extremely mild symptoms that are hard to notice. So if you “feel fine” and aren’t wearing a mask, yes you could potentially infect others without knowing it for up to a full week. THAT is why wearing a mask is so important.
So the city council is debating this right now. They’re about to mandate wearing of masks required for everyone in an essential business – employees and patrons. https://www.santabarbaraca.gov/gov/cityhall/council/meetings/videos.asp
So what if they have it? You won’t get it unless they cough on you or touch you with germy hands and then you get those in your mouth. If you keep at least 6 feet away, none of that will happen anyway! Masks are giving people a false sense of security and for that reason alone, I object to masks.
I don’t think that’s legal, but I don’t expect the city to concern itself with details like that. A free society cannot require people to wear face coverings. I would encourage those who wish to protest this sort of unconstitutional government overreach to engage in non-violent resistance, a tried and true tactic of the civil rights movement.
CHIP – again, this is NOT unconstitutional. For health emergencies, such as this, the govt can very well require certain TEMPORARY (key word here) precautions. And please, for the love of all that is logical and sacred, do NOT compare protests against temporary inconveniences to the Civil Rights movement. That is so wrong on so many levels.
Unconstitutional? It’s expressly given in the 10th amendment . States—and their cities and counties by extension—possess what has long been known as a “police power” to govern for the health, welfare and safety of their citizens. This broad authority, which can be traced to English common law and is reserved to the states by the 10th Amendment, is far from radical; it justifies why states can regulate at all. People who are misled about what the government may do, and confused about its established powers, might not take heed of the necessary measures to protect their own health and that of their communities.
These are the same folks who take issue when a football player takes a knee in protest.
And most cloth masks do not have a seal around the face. They are for the most part a feel-good solution to an important problem.
I like the stores that are requiring face coverings for their own premises, just as they require shirts and shoes.
3:51, I heard there may be some legal issues associated with grocery stores requiring customers to wear masks. However, I think it is the right of each business to set its own policy. Those who want an up-tight shopping experience with a strict dress code can choose a business that provides that. Those like me who prefer a more casual and relaxing shopping experience can choose a business that offers that. To each their own.
unanimous vote… Warning, then a Misdemeanor for wearing a mask inside some ‘essential businesses’ … it’s going to get real interesting out there.
but the incubation time is anywhere from 1 to 3 weeks (supposedly) so how could you ever possibly know where you got it from. what should people who do have physical conditions that are severely exacerbated by any oxygen restriction, but who also can’t afford delivery services.
Wow! Things will get interesting indeed. I hope that lawsuits are filed and an injunction can put a stop to this. I would also strongly encourage those with the time and inclination to engage in non-violent resistance. A small number of people can have a huge impact by rendering enforcement of this draconian measure untenable.
The mask is to prevent the person wearing it from expelling droplets far away from them if they are infected. They do not prevent the wearing from ingesting virus particles. So I wear mine to protect you, not me. Once I understood that, I was okay with wearing one.
Can you let me know where you shop so I can avoid those stores?
CHIP – I hate to burst your conspiracy bubble, but since this is a *temporary* order to protect us from a health emergency, it is neither illegal, nor will it be in effect long enough to be litigated.
Depending on conditions, 6 ft is not enough. If someone coughs around you, check out how much space they have after that. But if you feel 6 ft is enough, good luck to you.
Stores are hoping you do the right thing but don’t have the muscle or determination to fight with some of the libertarians that are posting here. Seems like a reasonable approach to me. A lot of our laws are really just suggestions for good social behavior.
Chance of being struck with lighting 1 in 700,000. Santa Barbara County population 446,000. Number of reported covid cases 500. Number of cases due to undercounting, 5000? You have a much better chance of running into an infected person that being struck by lightning.
let’s get your story straight @2:43. how would we know that. we haven’t been mass testing asymptomatic people around here. so, even though 3600 out of 4098 tests that we have run on mostly people who got sick enough to qualify for testing…. came up negative… there’s still this theory that there’s some huge positive population still out there… magically incubating among all these people who are avoiding eachother. God forbid you even suggest that the virus may have run it’s course already…
Chip of SB says: “A small number of people can have a huge impact…” Chip, that is exactly the problem! A small number of uncooperative, selfish tools that end up increasing the cases of COVID like they just had in Orange County. Stop being a tool, listen to the medical professionals and make this tiny sacrifice for the good of your community.
how is that statement still true after 6+ weeks of citywide lockdown and distancing. where are all of these “secretly infected people” still coming from. if they never knew, then devolped antibodies.. and that cycle has been able to run at least 4 times now… how do you explain so many negative tests in our hospitals.
@02:30 PM No, they are not designed to “contain the cough or sneeze” they are designed to block particles from entering your respiratory tract during inspiration and as a nifty side effect, they block MUCH of the particulate matter and droplets from shooting feet or event tens of feet away from the cougher/sneezer as well as blocking much of the droplet material from falling on the shopping cart, apples and bananas the next customer may pick up (hopefully after washing)
ask yourself why, if so many people are infected but never know it… why do they continue to just report CASE TOTALS.. as if the total is supposed to inspire some kind of fear. when really what is important is the amount of cases that developed serious illness/complication/injury.
“every single case” is not a tragedy. Why are we two months into this mess and the Stat Reporting is as primitive as when we started. If this issue is “important enough to track the movements of everyone” then why is it not important enough to present the data in meaningful ways that aren’t sensationalized.
The reporting is a mess because stats can be presented to suit the argument you wish to make. Person 1 says the large number of cases, regardless of outcome (ICU or death), indicates a crisis that requires a shutdown. Person 2 says, “Wait, we need more testing to drive the overall case number higher!”, in order to dilute the mortality rate and justify an end to the shutdown. Person 3 reaches for the popcorn and enjoys the show.
I am a physician who has managed to avoid the bad viral infections for years now. Maybe it is just good luck but here is what I do in my office. When a sick patient comes into my small office we give them a mask at the door. Many do not like that, but they want to be seen and don’t want to appear rude. I do not wear one one because it makes more sense to confine the germs at the source. Keeps the room cleaner too. We have seen lots of influenza, RSD and yes, even the bad Coronavirus strains that have been around for years. I wash my hands a lot. I like to have the sick, coughing patient pointed away from me as much as possible so that when they cough it goes the other way. If they cough, I halt my breathing for 10 seconds so as not to inhale those little bad germs. (I don’t inhale and then hold my breath because it seems worse to take a deep breath) I remove the patients mask briefly to look in the nose and throat and do whatever swabs are needed. It seems to work….
Forwarding screenshot of your message to Cottage health to ask if this is the best protocol and attitude for all their physicians. How would you know that you aren’t the source?
Wow this Dr. is telling us her way, which pre-covid was the way for many and is agood standard of care under normal circumstances. She’s not doing anything wrong.
I’ve seen signs posted at the Albertsons off Storke saying that masks are required to enter the premises, but only half of people shopping there are wearing them. Some people aren’t paying attention to the social distancing markers on the floor either, as a woman without a mask walked up behind me and started loading groceries onto the conveyer belt at the register while I was still loading mine. The employee said nothing, so I had to bark at the woman through my mask and point to the markers on the floor in order to back her up to the previous marker.
People are selfish and think they know better than the scientists, some believe it is a right to get sick and make others sick – that’s my opinion.
Maybe it would help for volunteers who make home-sewn masks to pass them out to people as they enter stores, and politely ask them to care for us all by wearing a mask inside the store. Also, go to the manager and complain if there are requirements to wear masks (as at Albertsons) and people aren’t doing it. Mention that you might call “the home office” and inquire about the policy and why it isn’t being enforced. Save a life.
I shop regularly at the Vons on the Mesa. Most shoppers wear masks but definitely a few rebels who do not seem to care. I asked the clerk if they can enforce mask wearing and she said they were instructed not to. I also noticed most employees on the floor had the worst social distancing habit, getting close to you, talking with other employees with their masks off, not moving out of the way. They have a good checkout system that’s spaced but other than that its a cluster.
Albertson’s in Buellton was requiring mask as of Friday 4/17. It was very nice to see everyone wearing mask.
Same here , so what was her reaction. I’ve considered everything from head gear to punching someone in the face. lol
Yet still not outbreaks at grocery stores. imagine that!
Call Garcetti on his “Snitch-a-Bitch” line. You will get a reward for your very humane civic duty and go home to live in isolation knowing that you saved so many lives.
Will masks really help? I think social distancing and washing your hands/sanitizing your shopping cart, etc is far more effective. Plus, I’ve noticed every time I’ve been in the grocery store since people started wearing masks, that the masked folks seem to have forgotten about social distancing. They seem to think a mask alone will protect them so no need to keep their distance. I almost ripped a mask off someone to yell at them to give me space. Keep your distance, people! I don’t care if you’re masked or not!
Areas around your mouth and nose are always covered with bacteria. Spray that area with hydrogen peroxide in the morning or after shaving and watch it fizz up.
Masks for situations like this are mostly to make people “feel” safer. Not going out when you’re sick, not coughing/sneezing into the open or your hand, not touching your face, and washing your hands regularly (all things people weren’t doing before!) significantly mitigates the spread of the virus. People forget these basic protective measures weren’t even being done pre-covid. the LOCKDOWN IS OVERLY EXTREME!!! https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/coronavirus-can-hand-washing-really-stop-the-spread-of-covid-19/
I was in Vons on the Mesa w/o a mask a few days ago. The sign about requiring a face covering wasn’t visible on the way in, just the social distance policy.
I don’t like wearing a mask because I touch my face more to adjust it. I noticed the same amongst people in Vons. Technically I met the requirements though. The sign said a face covering was required. I had one in my pocket, it didn’t say I had to wear it.
Stay home if you’re that afraid.
1. Using a mask or face covering does almost NOTHING to protect YOU from becoming infected. It only, and maybe, protects others FROM you IF YOU are infected. Social distancing works always. If you are in a situation where social distancing is not practical or others are being ignorant of that, a face covering *might be* a good idea. Other than that, no value. That IS the WHO guidelines. That is science.
2. Handling your face covering while wearing it, even once, not disinfecting your hands BEFORE and AFTER placing it on actually INCREASES your risk.
3. In our community, the chances of you coming in contact with someone who has the virus is about as likely as being struck by lightening. That is OUR LOCAL community and today. That may change. Using a face covering while out in the fresh air with no one nearby is utterly USELESS and in fact INCREASES your risk of becoming ill from other pathogens–viruses, bacteria and yeast infections of your mouth and throat. Which is also the rationale for NOT re-using masks/face covering unless disinfected between uses.
That’s medical science. If you use a covering to make yourself feel better, feel safer, I get that and that’s fine—as long as you do it correctly. Because if you don’t, AND MOST PEOPLE DON’T!, you and everyone around you is at greater risk. You’ll see. Watch for news media report of people with cold sores (which is herpes virus in case you didn’t know), thrush (yeast infection) and canker sores (bacteria and/or virus mouth lesions. From re-using face coverings. Or perhaps you wont here about it because there is SO MUCH you are not hearing about real medical science, just hysteria.
Ginger, you sound like an RN. Good advice.
the only enforcement is Social Enforcement. I would pray that if you think you’re smarter than the average bear… that your enforcement strategy would be more diplomatic and pragmatic than “punching them in the face.” Isn’t it obvious that they have a different value set than you do?
Exactly! But it doesn’t fit their narrative so they won’t mention that.
Ginger, the “lightning” analogy is far enough off to be called “wrong;” either that or big thunderstorms brewing. Otherwise right-on.
N95 masks completely protect you from getting the virus. I agree with Ginger many people are not wearing proper coverings, but N95 masks with a good seal DO protect you. Unfortunately many are wearing improper coverings, including N95 respirators that have a completely non-filtering exit valve for exhaust meaning that the wearer can spew their infected particles everywhere. Some cities are now banning these types.
The human body and its internals are all covered in bacteria. All the time. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
GINGER1 – I agree 100%. Masks are giving people a false sense of security. I wear mine only out of “respect” for others. I know it does nothing and I’m probably wearing it wrong. It’s a head covering basically that I put around my face. But, I do it so those folks who think masks are the cure don’t give me crap at the store. Nope, they just walk in front of me, thinking my mask will protect them. SMH….
I experienced this recently at the upper state street smart & final… they have a large sign stating face coverings are required for entry but they are not enforcing it as Gelsons is down the road. I asked the clerk about it and she ignored me and looked away. I asked her a second time and she just looked defeated and said “I don’t know” Why post a mandatory policy and then not at least have an employee at the door to remind people? One guy had a mask over his throat and another had his mask over his mouth but not nose… that guy sneezed (fortunately about 20 feet way from me) I think the idea of a face covering is to contain droplets. Its effective when everyone cooperates and combined with social distancing, hand washing and mindfulness about what we touch.
your tactics are terrible, man. — https://tradeforprofit.net/2020/04/who-endorses-swedens-lockdown-free-approach-to-tackling-coronavirus-live-updates/ — even the WHO has flipped back to saying “we could learn from Sweden”
Observer, you call for respect and courtesy and then refer to someone who disagrees with you a “selfish jerk” and an “ignoramus” all in the same post. Is that contradiction, or versatility?
if they’re going to give citations at a personal level… that means… either the store owner has to call the cops, and the customer would have to willingly wait for them to show up…. OR , the cops would need to already be there… stationed at every essential business… do you see that happening?
CHIP OF SB 4 8 APR 28, 2020 02:57 PM . . . Yeah, you go, CHIP. Get out there with your “I can’t go to my hair salon or bowling alley” pals and protest your right to expose yourself to the virus. Maybe try some precautionary injections of disinfectant while you’re at it. M(oronic) A(mericans) G(oing) A(pe).
Oh Chip, ignorance is not a virtue.
About time for Costco to soldier up. Went there last week and was stunned by the number of people without masks. They may be brain dead. Gratuitously pushing their carts into mine, not social distancing, aggressively unwilling or oblivuous to social conventions. Costco was not enforcing what I t thought were their own rules. Now I trust they will do so.
Costco new rules today: Face Mask Requirements–
To protect our members and employees, effective May 4, all Costco members and guests must wear a mask or face covering that covers the mouth and nose at all times while at Costco. This requirement does not apply to children under the age of 2 or to individuals who are unable to wear a mask or face covering due to a medical condition.
The use of a mask or face covering should not be seen as a substitute for social distancing. Please continue to observe rules regarding appropriate distancing while on Costco premises.
https://www.costco.com/covid-updates.html
Pit, You say that “A lot of our laws are really just suggestions for good social behavior.” If it is a “suggestion,” why have it as a law? If it is a law, then why have it if it isn’t enforced? Laws that aren’t enforced aren’t really laws and train people that it is OK to ignore other laws. I agree with you that we have way too many laws that have been passed by the Nanny State to control our behavior. IN fact CA has almost 100,000 more laws and ordinances than the next closest state, NY.
Interesting the same folks that want to control women’s reproductive health don’t want anyone controlling their health and the public.
@ CHIP They’re coming for your guns next. Bar the doors and sandbag the windows.
It’ll be safe to come out in two weeks. We’ll let you know.
CHIP your logic fails to explain how we’re still getting positives.
You do know there is a difference between virus testing and antibody testing right?
@@XANTUS that lack of oxygen is definitely affecting your thinking. I’d head over to Cottage for a checkup.
02:25 I have years of experience with all types of masks from light industrial to closed system medical. You are 100% correct.
non-sequiteur and Hyperbole…. what a thrilling debate tactic, Coolio. And people just pile onto that like it means something. Sign O’ The Times…
So now we learn the SB City Council in all their Covid Paranoia wisdom is forcing everyone to wear a mask, even if it’s a worthless bandana, in EVERY “essential business” by a 7-0 vote on Tuesday afternoon. “The Santa Barbara City Council voted Tuesday afternoon to make wearing masks mandatory in grocery stores, restaurants, retail food facilities, taxis, pharmacies and other businesses.” This becomes an enforceable law on Friday, with either a warning or a misdemeanor citation if you don’t comply, and businesses are required to prevent you from entering if you refuse to wear a mask. This is unbelievable, very disturbing, and complete government overreaction and overreach that smacks of treason and lunacy. If the “curve” wasn’t flattening and we had widespread deaths and more than 7 deaths from ‘Underlying Conditions” among our population of 445,000, this might be a necessary precaution, but to do this now from what we’ve learned is complete insanity. There are now dozens of doctors around the United States, including California and New York, that are stating the lockdown and other restrictive measures are no longer necessary. But, yet, here we are with this new infringement on liberty. Will the city council do this when the flu season comes around? Herd immunity? Why the heck would we want to believe in that? There is a rumor circulating that there may be a protest organized about this ordinance and not allowing businesses to open at city hall on Friday. This is getting interesting.
Masks dont do anything
it’s important to be very clear about this.
THE MISDEMEANOR WILL BE CHARGED TO THE BUSINESS… not the individual. — https://newspress.com/santa-barbara-city-council-mandates-face-masks-for-employees-and-customers-reaches-final-stages-of-potential-20-million-plus-deal-with-paseo-nuevo/ — please actually read what they say here… as currently, the new mandate is not really as Orwellian as you might think. Quote ““My office, the prosecutors in this office, would use their discretion very carefully before bringing misdemeanor action for a face mask violation. I can guarantee that a casual face mask violation by an individual customer is not going to result in misdemeanor filing,” said Mr. Calonne.”
This is key: Unless we have a better toolbox in terms of testing, contract tracing, hopefully one or more (even partially effective) drugs, and maybe a vaccine that can be deployed experimentally; we face a lot of risk this Fall from large covid outbreaks. I’m getting comfortable and happy wearing my face mask…for however well it works, it’s all I have, and I can give that much.
Xantus, this is what was quoted as reported by Noozhawk, so not sure why you are stating this only applies to the business, unless this was misreported: “People who disobey the order could face a misdemeanor charge, but would most likely just receive a warning.
City Attorney Ariel Calonne said the city would use discretion before charging any individual with a misdemeanor, and that the law would be most useful with large companies flagrantly disregarding the mask order.” You may be correct that the COVID Police may only warn, but they are fully enacted to cite as they deem necessary. Scare tactics, social shaming, suggested snitching? We have seen it the whole time since this began in January and it continues unabated.
“Scare tactics, social shaming, suggested snitching? We have seen it the whole time since this began in January and it continues unabated….” Also seen in Bavaria, oh about 1933- 1939… Parts of history will always continue to repeat past mistakes.
Insane and yet another example of local government gone awry. These people are not our overlords, they are not our rulers, they are elected officials hired for a few years to manage the operations of the city. At no time were they ever given the right to create or mandate anything that supersedes the rights granted to us by our inclusion in the USA and our state’s chosen adherence to the US constitution. As if this latest moronic overreach isnt bad enough, these are the second to last people on earth you want telling you what to do! The first being the Trump admin))). These nincompoops cannot even manage a small city well and they want to tell you how to live, breath and act???? The best thing for these so-called “leaders” to do is to cut the city’s expenses by 50% and then work for free. At least they’d be paid their true worth…
regarding the snitching – you can file a lawsuit against anyone who snitches and is wrong, and causes you problems. Similar to liability for a citizens arrest. I will be doing so, should I run into that issue for any reason.
meanwhile… swedens numbers still look totally reasonable. https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa
so how many of you actually believe that these masks or a bandanna actually prevent you from contracting the virus?
those masks (and bandannas) will not keep you safe from a virus. if you’re sanding wood, you’re good to go, avoiding a virus? You’re fooling yourselves. It’s not preventing you from breathing it. You would need a full respirator mask with dual hepa filters. have you seen the hospital workers in the COVID wards? They are in full hazmat suits. Think about it….
The face coverings aren’t going to prevent the wearer from being exposed to virus, but they will prevent some of the spray from regular talking and coughing from being spread to the wearer’s surroundings. Also, businesses can require customers to wear masks just as they require shoes and shirts.
Nobody should believe this. All of the info says masks help you stop spreading to other people if you happen to be infected – with symptoms or without. We wear masks to protect other people. Anyone who doesn’t know this at this stage has been hibernating.
Reasonable unless compared to every other European Country with lower fatality rates. I guess you don’t care about those extra dead people?
I’m a happy and a proud American when I put on my face mask.
Stop repeating your own theories as fact. Some PPE is better than none. That’s a fact. Wear a mask for your own good but also to show others respect. Respect and courtesy. Remember those traits? It is not hard. That is unless you’re a selfish jerk or an ignoramus… Respect and courtesy to your fellow human.
im thinking about why you feel the need to discredit what almost every medical expert has been advising. but sure, I would much rather follow the advice of someone on edhat.
We are all in this together.