Anonymous
Source: Office of Assemblymember Steve Bennett
In the wake of another tragedy and inaction at the national level, the Assembly Wednesday advanced a package of six gun violence prevention bills to the Senate, signaling California’s commitment to doing everything possible to take action where the federal government is not.
The group of six Democratic lawmakers – Asm. Mike Gipson (D-Carson), Asm. Buffy Wicks (D-Oakland), Asm. Steve Bennett (D-Ventura), Asm. Kevin McCarty (D-Sacramento), Asm. Brian Maienschein (D-San Diego), and Asm. Jesse Gabriel (D-Woodland Hills) – together brought their bills to a vote on the Assembly Floor. The Members expressed impassioned frustration with Congress’s failure to act on the issues of gun control and gun violence prevention, and emphasized the corresponding need for California to recommit itself with urgency to the fight.
“Our number one job as legislators is to keep our communities safe — and on the issue of gun violence, our federal lawmakers are failing horrifically” said Assemblymember Buffy Wicks. “While we have strong gun violence prevention laws here in California, there’s still so much more that can be done. We must do everything in our power under state law to strengthen protections for our communities, and be an example for other state legislatures to take action where our federal policymakers are not.”
“Thoughts and prayers won’t keep our kids safe. We need real action,” said Assemblymember Jesse Gabriel. “While Senate Republicans continue to obstruct progress, we are committed to moving forward common sense gun safety measures to protect our kids and our communities. When Washington D.C. fails to act, California must lead.”
The bills advancing to the Senate include:
· AB 1621 (Gipson) – Limiting Ghost Guns: Increasing Gun Safety in Our Communities
This bill seeks to increase public safety by further restricting “ghost guns” and the parts and kits used to build them, while protecting the rights of legal gun owners in California.
· AB 2156 (Wicks) – Firearm Manufacturing
This bill would close loopholes that currently allow individuals and corporations to manufacture large numbers of firearms without complying with standard manufacturer requirements.
· AB 2552 (McCarty) – Gun Show and Event Regulations
This bill ensures proper background checks at gun shows in California, and increases the safety and oversight of these events to prevent guns and ammo from getting into the wrong hands.
· AB 1769 (Bennett) – Ventura County Fairgrounds – Gun Show Ban
This bill prohibits the sale of firearms, firearm precursor parts, or ammunition on the property of the Ventura County Fairgrounds and Event Center.
· AB 2239 (Maienschein) – 10-Year Gun Ban Expansion
This bill adds additional misdemeanors to the list of crimes for which the 10-year ban from owning or possessing firearms applies.
· AB 1929 (Gabriel) – Medi-Cal reimbursement for Hospital-Based Violence Intervention Programs
This bill will provide Medi-Cal reimbursement for violence prevention services for victims of gun violence and other violent incidents.
Additionally, Assemblymember Phil Ting (D-San Francisco) will bring his bill AB 1594 to a vote on the Assembly Floor before the end of the week. The bill will empower California citizens, the state Attorney General and local governments to sue manufacturers and sellers of firearms for the harm caused by their products when the state’s strict gun laws aren’t followed.
The Floor vote followed a press conference with Governor Gavin Newsom, the aforementioned bill authors and other legislative leaders, who together vowed to keep working together to expedite bills aimed at curbing gun violence and increasing safety in California communities.
There remains a great amount of work to do in California to improve community safety for all – 2020 saw record spikes in gun violence nationwide, and California was not an exception. Still, the state continues to lead the nation in terms of gun violence prevention efforts, enacting state laws that have made a critical difference for communities statewide. Researchers have documented how California’s Gun Violence Restraining Order law has helped to prevent dozens of mass shooting attacks against schools, places of worship, workplaces, and the public at large – especially as compared to states with weaker gun laws:
· In 2020, children in California (0-17 year olds) were more than 40% less likely to be murdered with a gun than children of the same age in Texas.
· Laws including stronger domestic violence protections have made women about half as likely to be shot to death in California compared to Texas.
· Restrictions on military-style weaponry have helped reduce the likelihood that shootings that occur will become mass casualty events. Three of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in modern US history have occurred in Texas while Gov. Abbott was Governor.
“We have an epidemic in our country when it comes to gun violence and enough is enough. In California, we want action and will continue to work on gun violence prevention,” said Assemblymember Kevin McCarty. “My bill, AB 2552, ensures proper background checks at gun shows in California and increases the safety and oversight of these events to prevent guns and ammo from getting into the wrong hands. I am proud of the swift action of the Legislature to fast track not only my bill, but other gun reform bills.”
“Unfortunately, the United States experiences far more gun violence per person than virtually every other modern industrialized country in the world,” said Assemblymember Steve Bennett. “And what accounts for this? The United States has one of the most pervasive gun cultures in the world supported by a powerful gun lobby. Gun shows at the Fairgrounds enhance this and it is time for each of us to play a role in changing this culture.”
“Far too often, gun violence tragedies are perpetrated by individuals who have shown previous signs of violence or intent to harm others,” said Assemblymember Brian Maienschein. “AB 2239 would take firearms out of the hands of those charged with child endangerment or elder abuse, ensuring that these dangerous individuals cannot harm our most vulnerable.”
“Today, as AB 1621 and other critical gun reform legislation passed the Assembly and now move to the Senate, and vice versa, it is critical we remain diligent in continuing to push for solutions against rampant gun violence happening across the nation,” said Assemblymember Mike A. Gipson. “We are just 145 days into the year, and as of the Robb Elementary School tragedy in Uvalde, Texas just yesterday, where 19 children and 2 adults had their lives ripped away from them by a coward with an AR-15, the U.S. had its 212th mass shooting.
Gipson continued, “To say that this issue is personal to me is an understatement, and sending thoughts and prayers just isn’t enough. AB 1621, which seeks to eradicate “ghost guns” from our streets, is an important piece in the puzzle to save lives, and it is a common-sense approach toward providing justice for families who have continued to bear the burden of losing a loved one through incidents that could have otherwise been prevented. Almost any style of gun, including an AR-15, can be built at home and remain untraceable. For all communities that have experienced similar tragedies, gun violence is a wildfire that we work diligently to try to contain. And the casualties are our babies, sisters, brothers, friends, and acquaintances – all deserving of life but were cut short of their potential. Enough is enough.”
General, here is a good explanation of civil rights.
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Civil+Rights
CHIP – here’s a better one from a better source: “They’re guarantees of equal social opportunities and protection under the law, regardless of race, religion, or other characteristics. Examples are the rights to vote, to a fair trial, to government services, and to a public education. In contrast to civil liberties, which are freedoms secured by placing restraints on government, civil rights are secured by positive government action, often in the form of legislation..” – https://www.britannica.com/topic/civil-rights
“The language “shall not be infringed” is pretty absolute.” – So is the first part….. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” Have you joined up with the California State Militia yet?
CHIP – “civil rights are non-negotiable,” – OK, again, gun ownership is not a “civil right.” Regardless though, are you truly saying the 2A is “non-negotiable?” If that’s the case, why are citizens not allowed to purchase/own anti-aircraft cannons? Tanks? Nuclear weapons? Land mines? Answer? Because the 2A, just like the right to free speech, DOES have limitations and is not absolute. Your kind of thinking is what is murdering thousands of children a year in our country. It needs to stop.
Question for you gun lovers: How often are you in need of a gun? How many times has a gun saved your life from being taken by another person without a gun?
So, Chip, your answer is doing nothing.
And that’s how we built this great nation, right? By doing nothing.
Wait, so are you saying that “good guys with guns” aren’t always able to stop bad guys with guns?
Huh.
Im not advocating for doing nothing. However, taking away civil rights, or civil liberties as sac prefers to call them, will not make us safer. Oppressive governments have murdered hundreds of millions of people over the years, and widespread firearms ownership prevents that type of situation from occurring. Oppressive governments and armed populations never coexist. In addition, owning a firearm gives people the means to protect themselves and their families in the event of a disaster, civil unrest, and other dangers. Being armed is the opposite of being helpless in a dangerous situation. To your point Alex, this nation was built by the founders who used their firearms to overthrow the oppressive government of king George III, and the founders believed an armed populace was crucial to preserving liberty. They did something, they wrote the second amendment.
CHIP – I don’t “prefer” to call them that, they’re just not civil rights. You know, facts and such.
“widespread firearms ownership prevents that type of situation from occurring.” – Are you seriously implying that the only reason America has never been overtaken by an “oppressive” government because some of us have guns? Hahaha! Wow, you are one of those. Gross. Hey, do you think the US Military can be defeated by you and your buddies? Do you guys have some battleships, fighter jets and tanks we don’t know about? Good god that is hilarious.
How is this helping the 19 dead children Chip?
Blaming the police for this is reprehensible. Advocating for their “overthrow” because it would somehow have made this situation better is insane.
Alex – More is needed, yes. Obviously the idea though to get rid of the “good guys” is ridiculous.
General, nothing can help those children. However, trying to leverage people’s emotional reactions to a tragic event in order to take away constitutionally protected rights is not helpful either.
CHIP – what about these children’s rights? Do you care as much about them as you do about your “gun rights?”
ALEXBLUE What has changed is the over prescription of drugs to our children that cause violent aggression, suicidal thoughts.
Research it before knee jerk the down vote!!
SAIL – so, is the treatment of mental illness (prescription drugs) the problem or the un-treated mental illness itself? The guy who killed those kids had no history of mental illness. Just trying to sort this all out, since you know….. it has nothing to do with the availability of guns.
If articulating a reason that a constitutional right could be harmful to children was sufficient to invalidate it, then we could go ahead and void the entire bill of rights. In addition, being armed empowers parents to protect their children.
CHIP – “being armed empowers parents to protect their children.” How’d that work out for those 19 kids yesterday? How about for EVERY. SINGLE. CHILD murdered at their school? Any parents with guns there helping out the other “good guys with guns?”
40% of the Uvalde city budget goes to police. There were armed officers at the school. The police cowards refused to do anything to help, and even tased and arrested parents who tried to go rescue the kids from the school. So, explain to me again how more police and guns would have helped?
“If articulating a reason that a constitutional right could be harmful to children was sufficient to invalidate it, then we could go ahead and void the entire bill of rights.”
What kills more kids each day? Free speech? Assembly? Trial by jury? Freedom from cruel and unusual punishments? Not having soldiers quartered in their homes? Speedy trials? Due process? Which of these rights kill children every single day?
The 2nd Amendment is from 1791 when you had muskets and pistols that fired once and had to be reloaded. Weapons have evolved quite a bit since then. I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the 2nd Amendment evolve accordingly.
And stop bringing up dynamite, mental health, arming teachers, security at school, etc. The one factor that is the same for every incidence of gun violence is the gun. A persons mental health, personal beliefs, race, age, etc can vary, but the gun is the gun.
It’s simple, do something about the gun.
GC – That doesn’t appear to be true. According to the (admittedly changing narrative) there was no resource officer on campus at the time and the first two police officers to arrive were both shot and wounded as they entered and then pulled back. The shooter killed everyone in the room they were in. So, explain to me…how would less (or no!) police have helped?
Alex, but we don’t take away everyone’s cars because of drunk drivers. (FYI, I have never owed a gun). What has changed in our culture and why? The culture that’s created these monsters will still be creating monsters guns or no guns. Addressing that would be addressing the heart of the issue, rather than throwing a band-aid on it.
First, all of these proposals (in the article) seem reasonable, except for the Ventura showground ban on gun shows. If enacted, they’ll most likely have a minor, if any, impact on gun violence in California. Instead of our politicians rushing to capitalize on this tragedy for their own political gain, particularly in a way that potentially infringes on our constitutional rights (whether you utilize those rights or not), they should be asking WHY a barely 18-yearold, bought a gun (premediated), shot his grandmother in the face, then drove to an elementary school and killed a bunch of young children? But I haven’t heard anyone asking that very important question.
” we don’t take away everyone’s cars because of drunk drivers” – because cars have a primary and separate purpose – transportation. They’re not designed to kill.
At times your lack of reason and logic can simply stunning. What do the secret service use to protect the president and other politicians? The private security for celebrities? What does the guard at the bank have on his hip? While advocating to defund the police, the private security hired by the BLM leaders carried, squirt guns? The CDC even knows how important firearms are for self defense, being used an estimated 500,000 to 3M times per year. But you don’t hear about those, because that doesn’t garner the financial returns for the media nearly as much as tragedy does. Please read and inform yourself, guns have a primary and separate purpose than murdering others:
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent
I’m just going to say it even though nobody here in the “vote blue no matter who” crowd will believe it. These politicians are a bunch of grandstanding Karens implementing redundant laws that don’t do anything. So called “assault rifles” are only involved in 5% of gun crimes. “Ghost guns” are involved in less than 1% and are already illegal in California. Mandatory background checks for Gun Show purchases? I bought a rifle at the Ventura Fairgrounds 6 years ago and guess what? I had to go through a mandatory background check. Hell, when I lived in Oklahoma and Missouri, two of the most gun friendly red states, I bought guns at gun shows and had to go through a background check. These infringements on the 2nd Amendment are a deliberate attempt by elitists that live in a bubble surrounded by armed security to remove the People’s only protection from tyrannical governments. Yes, guns. Modern, up to date guns. Because our Founding Fathers didn’t put the 2nd Amendment in to protect deer hunting, or skeet shooting, or even (believe it or not) personal self defense.
Law abiding citizens who follow these laws will be at the mercy of criminals who don’t. And everyone here should remember how well “The War on Drugs” got us less drugs. How “The War on Terror” replaced the Taliban with the Taliban. Self protection isn’t a big deal in our liberal bubble of Santa Barbara. You have to got down to the worst parts of town in the middle of the night looking for trouble to find it. But in LA, SF, Chicago, and New York law abiding people of color are routinely deprived of their right to defend themselves. But not the criminals in their neighborhood. If you subtracted the major anti-gun cities from the stats the US would have some of the lowest crime and gun crime stats in the world. Down Mexico way the Mexicans let their government water down their version of the 2nd Amendment so guns are basically illegal. Who has guns in Mexico now? The corrupt police, the corrupt army, and the drug cartels. Civilians in the middle are collateral damage between them. It should be a peaceful paradise, amirite? In 2006 Mexico had a drug war casualty count equal to Iraq’s. It might still but the cartels intimidated (and murdered) journalists reporting on them.
It saddens me that modern liberal culture has come to this. The people (my late parents) that taught me the importance of Free Speech, to “Question Authority”, and “Give Peace a Chance” (bumperstickers on every 10th car in Santa Barbara in the 80s) act like the Proles in Orwell’s 1984. But this is already too long for a dissent that will just get downvoted by so called liberals who can think critically when watching Fox News but seem to lose 80 IQ points watching CNN and MSNBC.
My “reason and logic?” That’s rich coming from you, someone completely unable to answer a direct question or claim. You completely ignore my counter to your fallacious argument about cars and instead talk about self defense. You just going to ignore the fact that cars are different from guns?
Anyway, here you go though:
“guns have a primary and separate purpose than murdering others” Yes, the other purpose is to kill. I never said murder, that’s YOUR word. Are you seriously sitting there telling us guns have some purpose other than to kill (whether intentional or not, justified or not)?
How about insitutionalizing the NUTS among us… Their Parents know who they are, the Teachers know who they are, the School Counselors KNOW who they are and their co-workers and family members KNOW who they are…. Build more MENTAL INSITUTIONS and do NOT let the ACLU tell us “they have rights….” LOCK THEM UP!
SAIL – you mean the mandatory health evaluations? Heck, that would be great! You want a gun, you have to pass a thorough evaluation by a licensed professional. That would be a great first step. I don’t think many in the GOP would accept this though.
Accurate, and thank you for saying what many are thinking but too afraid of the wrath from the likes of the regular shills here.
SACJON, Prove the killer had no mental illness or was not prescribed drugs that promote violent aggression and suicidal thought!!! You cant because his juvenile records are probably sealed. The US is #1 prescribing those drugs and #1 in mass killings. Stop the killings before they have been brainwashed with chemicals!!!
SAIL – I can’t prove those things, I just said what has been said by the news – he has no history of mental health issues.
““There is no evidence the shooter is mentally ill, just angry and hateful,” said Lori Post, director of the Buehler Center for Health Policy and Economics at the Northwestern University School of Medicine. “While it is understandable that most people cannot fathom slaughtering small children and want to attribute it to mental health, it is very rare for a mass shooter to have a diagnosed mental health condition.” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/abbott-calls-texas-school-shooting-mental-health-issue-cut-state-spend-rcna30557
But, that’s beside my point. I was asking if you could clarify the problem you see. Is it the treatment for mental health (prescription drugs) that is causing people to do this or is it the mental health issue themselves doing this? You say we need to provide better mental health, but then you say the prescription drugs for mental health is causing people to do horrible things like this.
How many mass shooters were being prescribed drugs for mental illness?
“do NOT let the ACLU tell us “they have rights….” LOCK THEM UP!” – Not only is that unconstitutional, it’s un-American. Funny how you cling for dear life to the constitution when it comes to pieces of metal, but not when it comes to human beings. Well, at least living human beings….
SACJON, All you need to do is look at how little old Ukraine has been able to hold off Russia. Ukraine is the most firearm friendly county in Europe. See how the militia works? Dormant until called into action to defend the country.
SACJON The date 1990 came up earlier as a date of increased shootings. About the same time as Prozac’s introduction. Just a coincidence?
Ukraine has a military. Where is our “dormant militia?” Who is threatening to invade us?
Sail – which of the mass shooters were found being treated with prozac?
We are overlooking the strange obsession that I would categorize as “Gun Fetishism”.
This Obsessive Compulsion Disorder whereby certain humans become overtaken with the desire to own as many guns as they can afford, justified, in the their own minds, as a protection against the ominous “THEY” that they fear will someday be coming to take their freedoms away from them.
Another term for this obsession is “ammosexual”, whereby a person only feels orgasmic release and satisfaction in knowing that they have enough guns and bullets to slaughter 10,000 “threats” should the fantasy arise.
I have three guys at work, who between them, own 52 weapons. Handguns of various calibers – 9MM, 45 ACP, even a 10 MM; rifles – but of course, you have to own a slew of bolt actions and semi autos, shotguns – because everybody needs at least three tacticool 12 gauges in case Nancy Pelosi comes to eat your brain. Think about that – 52 weapons of death owned by just 3 people. They don’t hunt for food, they aren’t in the military, they live in nice quiet suburban middle class neighborhoods, but somewhere along the line, they have been led to believe that success at life requires the fire power of a full squad of infantry.
When did this country become addicted to firearms and why?
I grew up in rural South Carolina where every household had Grandads’ rifle over the mantle and you got your first .22 at age 13. But you were taught that a gun was a tool – nothing more. Just like a hammer or a screwdriver, it was something to be used for specific tasks and none involved the murder of other human beings. There was no fetishism involved, no loving strokes of the barrels, no obsessing over hard ball versus hollow point – only the practical use of whacking that field rat that was messing with your chickens.
You didn’t take it to school to kill your bullies, you didn’t use it against the “them”, you didn’t wear a sidearm into the grocery store and you never thought twice about that tool being the way-point for defining “Freedom”.
I really struggle with the how and why that guns have become a cult. What led us to this state of barbarism?
First Person shoot-em-up video games desensitizing our youth?
Fox News terrifying old white people?
What and why?
I don’t have an answer.
Not one mention of increased mental health care to prevent a person form progressing to the point of killing another human.
SAIL – probably because that would be the subject of another bill. Gun laws should not be addressing mental health care, mental health bills should. They are two different (albeit connected) topics.
SAIL – Here’s something to think about: Are all murderers suffering from mental health issues? Does racism and hate count as a mental health issue? Basically, are we presuming that every mass shooting was the result of a mental health issue? If so, what? Is being bullied a mental health issue? Having no friends and being obsessed with guns? Is that a mental health issue?
Not saying they’re not, but just pointing out that just because someone commits a terrible crime, doesn’t always mean they could have been stopped had they had better mental health care. Some people are just plain rotten. Also, it’s way easier to shift the blame on “mental health” as a blanket solution for gun violence.
Guns, even semi-automatics rifles with magazines, have been prolific in the US for a hundred years, yet mass schools shootings only started in the late 1990’s? What has changed?
“mass schools shootings only started in the late 1990’s” – not really true. Here’s some interesting articles that may help shed light on this issue.
http://behindthetower.org/a-brief-history-of-mass-shootings
https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states
Law enforcement killed these kids. They made errors every step of the way and now 19 kids and 2 adults are dead because of it. It took 12 minutes for cops to respond to report of a man with guns who crashed his car and is on foot near a school. 12 MINUTES! For a town of 15,000… why so long.
AND THEN. The cops are not saying what happened for one hour while they refused to go in and engage the gunman. ONE HOUR!! Parents were being thrown to the ground as they tried to run in and save their kids while the police wouldn’t. Parents asked to borrow bullet proof vests so they could go in. All while law enforcement hung around for one hour until border patrol with tactical gear arrived. It’s too late. The kids bled out. They all died, and some of them, maybe most of them could’ve been saved.
Law enforcement is inept. Lawmakers are inept. GOP protects their power and the NRA over children’s lives. Police protect themselves and other law enforcement and their reputations over civilian’s lives. Overthrow them all.
SACJON Its a Gun Violence Prevention Package. Addressing mental health should be a top “prevention” tool. By the time someone has made up their mind to commit a violent act, its almost to late.
SBSURFER – sad but true. And this is yet another reason where we can’t rely solely on “good guys with guns.” Look at Buffalo last week – a “good guy” shot the shooter but was unable to stop him. Look at Parkland – the “good guy” ran and hid. It’s time to stop the problem by making it harder to get the thing that causes the death – the gun.
Sail – here is how your logic is flawed. Yes, every country and community needs comprehensive mental health treatment. But there are mentally ill and homicidal people all over the world and the U.S. is the ONLY developed nation with gun violence to this degree. Stop passing the buck onto mental health and address what is killing people, guns.
SAIL – what would you like to see? Mandatory complete mental health evaluations for all gun buyers?
These laws will be generally ineffective, and virtually impossible to enforce. Defining what constitutes a “gun part” is virtually untenable. In addition, many of the proposed restrictions are constitutionally dubious. Further, legal challenges to much of California’s existing gun control legislation are underway including the so-called “assault weapon” ban, so-called “high capacity” magazine ban. The Supreme Court is likely to define the framework for how second amendment rights cases are evaluated when it issues its ruling in the Bruen case in the weeks ahead. Once this ruling is issued, much of California’s existing gun control legislation is likely to crumble. Passing new anti second amendment laws will likely result in costly litigation that the state of california will ultimately lose. The bottom line is civil rights are non-negotiable, even if a majority wishes to implement restrictions on a minority group such as owners of certain types of firearms or enthusiasts who build their own firearms. Finally, eliminating guns entirely would not eliminate the danger posed by disgruntled/mentally disturbed people. The worst school massacre, not a shooting, in the history of the United States took place in 1927. A disgruntled man dynamited a school, killing 45 people. Interestingly, one could legally order a Thompson machine gun along with “high capacity” magazines from the Sears catalog at that time without any background checks, registration requirements, or other restrictions.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/worst-school-massacre-in-us-history-happened-95-years-ago/ar-AAXIFX4
right, so just dont try… working great so far chip
no, the person that killed these kids was the person behind the gun, the tool they used. was a gun.
@Pstar – and the police that sat by and did nothing aren’t culpable? And by your logic shouldn’t be have better laws in place so the person using such tool cannot access said tool?
You’re right CHIP – the easy and cheap alternative is to slaughter children.
no, I 100% agree better laws are need to be in place so this wont happen again. But I am NOT going to give the shooter any sort of “easy off” by pointing the finger to the police.
Other countries do not have constitutionally protected civil rights. The language “shall not be infringed” is pretty absolute. I’m not saying do nothing, but I am saying that attacking the second amendment is likely to result in costly litigation the state of california will ultimately lose. In addition, guns are tools and taking away guns does nothing to deal with people who want to commit atrocities. I think it would be more effective to focus on the people who commit atrocities, not the tools they use to do it.
“Other countries do not have constitutionally protected civil rights.” 1) that is not true at all. 2) the right to bear arms isn’t a “civil right.”
What will the Republican lawmakers propose for mental health and gun violence?
“taking away guns does nothing to deal with people who want to commit atrocities.” – uh…. except stops them from being able to kill large numbers of people within seconds and being able to kill the police officers who would otherwise be able to stop them from killing all those people within seconds.
Seriously? I really had to explain that to you?
Someone who believes the 2nd amendment is a “Civil Right” shouldn’t even be at the table in the discussion.
Interesting statement:
“Wayne LaPierre, the head of the N.R.A. opened the convention by calling out “the evil” of the attack in Uvalde. Then he quickly pivoted to saying the federal government could not “legislate against evil,” and said President Biden’s gun control proposals would restrict “the fundamental human right of law-abiding Americans to defend themselves.”
Republicans are obviously legislating morality; what they think is evil.
And what about the fundamental right to life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness for the post-born?!
GT, you’re points are great ones. they already exist though and that does not stop things. Sac is right on all points. Why do you have a problem with what Sac proposed? Simple question.
In fact, what sac is proposing is pure logic. Something that the Right doesn’t understand. Quoting Ted Cruz (puke), The NRA stands up for the American People. Bullpucky. They just line their pockets with blood money.
They don’t give a crap about mass shootings. This is the ONLY nation on earth where this happens. Think about that. Think deeply about that.
VOR are you freakin joking? The worthless PD and response they had in that gun toting state was ridiculous and cost lives. Try to justify that. Do it. I’m sure the families of the 19 people murdered would love to hear your take on things. Go for it.
because it’s an AR15. Not a glock.
because it’s an AR15. Not a glock.
yup…..glad someone pointed that out
VOR lets see some facts dude. I’ve researched this before i posted. Show me mass shootings in other nations. Show me mass shootings in other nations at the quantity and frequency we have. Please do.
VOR lets see some facts dude. I’ve researched this before i posted. Show me mass shootings in other nations. Show me mass shootings in other nations at the quantity and frequency we have. Please do.
Zerohawk – I agree with ALL of Sacjons points. The NRA is a joke and so is Ted Cruz. I was adding to his list as he had asked. Maybe there was a misunderstanding somewhere?
VOICE – you should really use quotes when you lift directly from other sources. Either way, are you truly saying and believing that there are 36 other countries out there with more mass shootings than ours? Can you please list those?
Sac, california already attempted to ban sales of semitomatic rifles to persons under 21 years of age. The 9th circuit court of appeals ruled that law unconstitutional.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-05-11/federal-court-rules-california-ban-on-gun-sales-to-people-under-21-unconstitutional
California already outlawed certain semiautomatic rifles that it defines as “assault rifles” based on complex permutations of cosmetic features that certain rifles have. California has also banned the sale of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. Challenges to these laws are working through the courts now and these laws are likely to be ruled unconstitutional, particularly after the Supreme Court issues its decision in the Bruen case next month.
I don’t think many of your other suggestions, like attempting to bankrupt gun manufacturers through litigation, will hold up in court either. However, I strongly agree with your proposal to get tough on crime and keep violent criminals behind bars. That absolutely does pass constitutional muster and would greatly improve public safety. You can’t take rights away from law abiding citizens, but you certainly can put criminals in jail!
The NRA should be eradicated for it’s support of shootings like this.
How many mass shootings took place with a shotgun, single fire rifle or pistol? It’s not all guns to blame for these mass shootings. It’s those guns which are designed to kill 20-50 people within seconds even a possibility. THOSE guns need to go. No one hunts with them (unless they’re a crappy shot and need more than 3 rounds to down a deer) and no one needs them for self defense (unless they’re fighting off a small army). YOU DON’T NEED THOSE GUNS.
“get tough on crime and keep violent criminals behind bars. ” – How many mass shootings were carried out by criminals who were released from jail?
Until we stop blaming everything but the ONLY thing that makes mass shootings possible, nothing will change.
ZERO – thank you for what you’re doing in Ukraine. I appreciate the well wishes. I too need to end my involvement here with people who clearly have no intention of straying from their hard held beliefs. “Arguing” with illogical and blatantly false statements is starting to wear on me. I need to learn to just drop it. Time for a toke, a beer and a walk….. that always helps!
The one in Sacramento was. And why do you keep flip flopping? You’ve been arguing on both sides of the ‘if it save even 1 life we should do it’ and ‘because it’s not 100% effective we shouldn’t do it”.
Not flip flopping at all. Where did I say we “‘because it’s not 100% effective we shouldn’t do it”. Once again, completely LYING and fabricating my statements. I never ever said that. Just like I NEVER said I opposed armed guards.
I get it though, it’s way easier to “argue” against something you made up.
Stories where good guys with guns save the day happen a lot more than many people realize and get little attention. Here is a good example:
https://wchstv.com/news/local/victim-hospitalized-in-charleston-shooting
How do you get this:” So, we shouldn’t give people suffering from mental health and medications? ” from my comments? This is more of that if it’s not 100% so we shouldn’t do it flip floppy stuff.
WHAT?! You clearly don’t understand what I’m talking about with the “it’s not 100% effective so let’s not do it” thing.
My question about medications was directed toward your comment saying you never said “over-prescribed.” The reason for my comment was to call it out and ask what you meant then by even bringing up prescription meds. If they’re a (not the) cause (as you said) of mass shootings, then I’m asking if you think we should stop giving people meds. Why am I walking you through this….. ?
I posted something similar yesterday, a report funded by Obama admin and completed by the CDC no less, but they refuse to acknowledge that guns also save and protect people too. Similar to how they approached covid, if it saves just one life (from dying of covid) consequences be dammed (even the consequences also cost lives).
Here’s another with less words, more pictures: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country France has much tighter gun control, but more mass shooting per capita. Norway as well. Regardless of the reason, those that say this doesn’t happen in other countries are misinformed.
If you’re hinging your argument on this (flawed) study, you should be able to easily articulate for us what countries have a higher rate of mass shootings than the US. Finish your work.
I say flawed, because it was disputed:
“As eye-opening as the CRPC study was, many statisticians believe the reason the results seem so counterintuitive is that they’re incorrect. One of the more detailed analyses appeared on the fact-checking website snopes.com and concluded that the CRPC report used “inappropriate statistical methods” which led to misleading results.” (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country)
“[The study} uses inappropriate statistical methods to obscure the reality that mass shootings are very rare in most countries, so that when they do happen they have an outsized statistical effect. (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/)
Further, the study VOICE relies on was “published by the Crime Prevention Research Center (CPRC), a pro-gun rights nonprofit run by economist John Lott. (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/)
I wouldn’t hang my hat on an obviously flawed stat analysis by an obviously biased group.
“those that say this doesn’t happen in other countries are misinformed.” Who ever said that? No one, that’s who. We all know, despite your flawed study, that the USA has more instances of gun violence than any other country on earth.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-us-gun-violence-world-comparison/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
Zerohawk did, a few times. Just hit control+F and type in ‘nation’. I also recall you had difficulty with this for covid too: per capita is the metric you need to use to accurately compare groups of different population sizes, not number of instances.
VOICE – per capita is useful for something like covid, not for this. The ratio of deaths per person isn’t as important as the number of instances themselves. Going by this study, Norway is the most killingest place on earth and we all know that is 100% false. The only reason Norway is on there at that rank is because of the 77 person massacre in 2011 carried out by a domestic terrorist. Comparing that ONE instance to all of the US mass shootings by terrorists to bullied teenagers with legal guns COMPLETELY distorts the picture.
From the Snopes article I provided: “The example of Norway gives a good illustration of just how absurd this use of statistics is. In 2009 and 2010, according to Lott’s data, there were zero mass shooting deaths in Norway. In 2011, far-right extremist Anders Behring Breivik killed eight people in a series of bombings in Oslo, then shot dead 69 more in a massacre at a Labor Party summer camp on Utoya island.
In 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015, there was not a single death from a mass shooting in Norway.
If we compare the number of mass shooting deaths each year to the population of Norway each year, using the same method we did for the United States, we get an average annual death rate of 2 per million, more than 20 times higher than the rate in the United States (0.09 per million), even though we know there were zero mass shooting deaths in six out of those seven years, in Norway.”
Now, keep telling us that’s not so bad in the US compared to other countries……
ERICL…FINALLY! An intelligent answer not based on someone’s buxxhurt pride. Can I write buxx here? lol I would only add that, had a responsible adult at Robb Elementary been carrying a weapon (maybe even the teacher) we’d have 19 children to tell the story of how their hero teacher stopped a madman from doing harm.
I saw a photo recently of a sign with LARGE letters posted at a school entrance that read, “ATTENTION: The staff at EARLY ISD is armed and may use whatever force is necessary to protect OUR STUDENTS.”
If schools were protected, responsible adults were able to carry (yes, with training and safeguards, etc.) then I believe we would see less tragedies like this in schools. So, ERICL, GREAT post, right on target!
I hope Zerohawk and Sacjon don’t leave Edhat. We need you here. Please check in, state your opinions. Some of the other regulars are irrational, so reasoning with them is pointless. But we still need to hear the sane people.
SB93117 – “had a responsible adult at Robb Elementary been carrying a weapon (maybe even the teacher) we’d have 19 children to tell the story of how their hero teacher stopped a madman from doing harm.” – were the armed 2 border patrol agents who tried to stop him but were shot not “responsible adults….carrying a weapon?”
SB93117 – I see now the timeline has been once again revised and the 2 border patrol agents never happened. STILL…. look at all the other times “responsible adults” who were there and armed failed to stop the shooters: Parkland, Buffalo, and many more.
I am deeply saddened , I do feel that if the school was locked , gates locked doors locked, cameras being watched. Maybe this could of been prevented and of course security guards.
Why not security at schools????? This seems to be the place these young unbalanced people go to.
Let’s not take the responsibility away from the parents who have these guns relatively available for their angry kids to get.
So how do we monitor that all registered guns are in a locked safe in these homes.
Parents need to be aware of their children metal stresses get your kids help.
because police at schools make children feel like prisoners. they are not the problem, the people with high powered rifles that come to schools are.
CRYSTAL – In this case, the shooter purchased his own weapons. That’s part of the problem. 18 year old’s shouldn’t be allowed to purchase weapons capable of killing so many people in just seconds. If you can’t buy a beer, you don’t get to buy a gun. Should be simple.
“give peace a chance”? as you shout that from behind a barrel of a gun, hypocrazy at its best right here.
the constant battle of saying people are “stupid” and ” blinded ” and “dont know the facts” its the example of where this country is. internally. why are we fighting each other like this, its obvious that this is a problem yet some wont open their eyes to see it. wont change the page to make a worthwhile change.
to EVERYONE shouting about “Tyrannical” things and protecting yourself from it.
when was the last time that happened? when was the last time you have to “take up arms” and protect the country from this? never…. so stop saying thats what we need them for!
Still not much talk about WHY a barely 18 year-old would do this. Take a young boy, remove the father, sit him in front of a screen all day with endless content, social media and porn, no guidance or companionship, give him some prescription medication, isolate him – that’s how you make a school shooter.
Thank God you’re here Voice to solve this super easy problem.
JOE6 – great ideas! For those who insist on fallaciously comparing guns to cars, how about this? How about we require extensive training and testing, licensing and insurance with annual registration fees, the revenue going to families like those in Texas? You can keep most of your guns, but you’ll have to be properly trained and licensed to do so.
What do you think? VOICE? STEVE O? SAIL? CHIP?
VOICE – was this shooter being prescribed any meds? What other mass shooters were being prescribed meds unnecessarily? I’ve tried asking CHIP about this but he won’t/can’t answer.
Sac, hit them where it hurts! their brains….
what you & Joe posted is very very accurate. You’re rights do not supersede the safety of the rest of us. Especially our kids. THIS ONLY HAPPENS IN OUR COUNTRY. It does not happen anywhere else. USA is becoming more and more unstable and unsafe. Fact. There are third world nations that I have been to, that talk about how dangerous it is visting USA. no joke. Even in UKR i was asked about the ‘gun madness’ in the states by soldiers. Seasoned war vets confused by media reports that the states are reverting back to the old wild west in regards to shootings and deaths related to gun violence. We are making El Salvador jealous….
PSTARSR, then don’t you think armed security on campus would prevent people from thinking about coming on campus and murdering kids watching a childrens film? kinda seems like the most logical thing to do, aside of banning semi automatic weapons, and making it harder for people to get them so quickly. make the process longer. if they are hell bent on murder, time could change that course. just speculating…
Steve O, don’t go. Some of the mentality’s on here will never change but there are many more readers, who don’t comment, who appreciate rational discussion using reason and logic. Joe6, seems reasonable but for each regulation proposed I like to look back on the recent tragedies we’re trying to stop – would X regulation have prevented Y tragedy. I don’t think it would have stopped the recent event in TX nor CA’s recent shooting in Sacramento. Where most of these, common sense on the surface regulations fail to stand up in court, and receive massive pushback for 2A advocates, is when it gets to the ‘no you can’t own a weapon, or we’re taking yours away’. The metrics applied to that are decided by government bureaucrats – covid in particular showed they’re extremely fallible and quick to take and exercise control over the populace – the exact reason why we have the 2A. Again as covid laid bare, the government was very quick to exceed its authority without hesitation, but reversing those acts took months or years going through the courts to be corrected, again exactly the reason the 2A is there. The amount of blind trust people have put into the government is misplaced, and scary.
Which comment are you replying to? 4:29 where I’m referring to the specific recent tragedy and did not mention medication, or the 8:58 comment where I’m clearly talking about school shooters in general?
EricL- Ok you really do have some solid points that can’t be debated logically. I can’t even come up with things to challenge you and I really want to, so I will agree with most of what you state, because it’s fact. I don’t agree with you politically for the most part, but yeah, there is no stopping this.
Now, you state this: “These infringements on the 2nd Amendment are a deliberate attempt by elitists that live in a bubble surrounded by armed security to remove the People’s only protection from tyrannical governments.
****ok this i don’t agree with. It’s not just them, it’s the other side too. Don’t be fooled. It’s a faux back n forth. The left stands up because this really has gone way too far. The right stands up, “don’t take my guns!”. Well your guns are murdering a lot of innocent people in the greatest nation on earth…and it is making it much less great and much less safer.
Tyranical governments. Frankly the only time in my life, i’m 51, that we have had a tyranical government was under Trump. Id even take “W” back in office over Trump. At least “W” tried his best.****
Yes, guns. Modern, up to date guns. Because our Founding Fathers didn’t put the 2nd Amendment in to protect deer hunting, or skeet shooting, or even (believe it or not) personal self defense.
*****here is something and I’m sure you have heard it before, but for a reason. Our founding fathers did not pen this with assault rifles and semi automatic hand guns, ghost guns, 3D printing guns and armor piercing rounds too. When they penned this, a musket was the main weapon and their hand guns, do you know how long it took to load just one bullet? Think about that. Now we have allowed this to spiral out of control. If we were talking about old school rifles and a 6 shooter, it would make a LITTLE more sense.****
Law abiding citizens who follow these laws will be at the mercy of criminals who don’t. And everyone here should remember how well “The War on Drugs” got us less drugs. How “The War on Terror” replaced the Taliban with the Taliban. ”
*****Yes this is all true. Good guys and bad guys. But this fun fetish culture has allowed both to be armed to the teeth with assault weapons and battlefield quality firearms. That’s way over the top. Gun manufacturers and right wingers get rich off of this. While people die and kids get murdered. This is not the time to defend guns. This is the greatest country on earth. This is also the only country this happens in.
BOOM….good point Sac.
VOR and you don’t think your party is doing just that? man you really bring weak/lame arguments to the table. go back to work on this and come back after you do some reading and research.
Sac, that’s because you are asking a logical, intelligence based question. They won’t be able to understand or even respond.
OMG MAdhatter nails it. I’ve said this time and time again and they just won’t hear it. When you say this sentence to them, they immediately bury their heads in the sand and plug their ears.
SAIL – where did I say anything about armed parents?
VOICE – I also asked “what other” shooters were found to be over prescribed meds? You claimed it is a cause of mass shootings. I’m asking which ones. Super simple, nothing to evade here. You make the claim, you support it.
OK, so I do what you (VOICE, SAIL, STEVE O) have been asking: I provided a possible solution, along with JOESIX, and even invited discussion by asking what you all think. No response, just downvotes. Please stop pretending that you care about this and actually want to do something about it.
Zero, EricL wasn’t talking about one political party or the other in his “elitist” reference. Our founding fathers put the 2A amendment in so the citizens can protect themselves from the government, so while they had only muskets or similar at the time, so did the government (you can save the tanks, fighter jets, and bazooka, comments as in Ukraine and Iraq both proved an entrenched civilian population can’t be stopped with with tanks and jets). Finally, holy cow wow, I simply can’t fathom how after two years of Covid tyranny it’s Trump you cite as the only time you think we’ve had a tyrannical government, MSM played you well.
Ukraine has a military force and standing militias. Further, it was attacked by other nations, not their own government. The government of the United States has never, ever, in its entire history come even close to attacking its own citizens. Further, we don’t have a superior world power trying to make the US a subject of its monarchy. The “protection against the government” excuse is just fantastical dreaming.
10:09 – once again, the “good guys with guns” were useless.
Zerohawk thinking that this only happens in the US is false but common mistake due to our very large population and media whose quick to provide constant coverage on tragedies like this in the US but rarely internationally.
The US makes up less than 1.15% of the mass public shooters, 1.49% of their murders, and 2.20% of their attacks. All these are much less than the US’s 4.6% share of the world population. Attacks in the US are not only less frequent than other countries, but they are also much less deadly on average.
Out of the 97 countries where we have identified mass public shootings occurring, the United States ranks 64th in the per capita frequency of these attacks and 65th in the murder rate.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3289010
First, the “well regulated militia” part of the second amendment does not render it void/meaningless/obsolete. “The second amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.”
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
Second, sac, there are no restrictions on buying cars, car parts, or on manufacturing your own car. In addition, registration of cars is not required nor a license. There are no restrictions on owning cars or using them on private property. In order to operate a car on a public road, you are required to obtain a license, registration, and insurance. The state is required to issue a license to operate a vehicle on a public road to anyone who requests one unless they have been deemed medically unfit to drive or barred from driving due to their criminal record. I expect the that pending litigation will soon clarify that the state is similarly required to issue a permit to carry a firearm in public to anyone who requests one with a clean criminal record.
Another thought given recent updates: If the cops were too scared to engage someone with this type of weapon, why is this type of weapon available, especially to an 18 year old?
I never said over-prescribed (don’t you call that… a lie?) and also never claimed it caused, but is certainly a factor in, incidents of violence including mass shootings. If you aren’t aware of the FDA black box warning and potential side effects of SSRI’s including violence and suicide, particularly in already troubled individuals, both while taking it or abruptly stopping in, you need to do some reading before you continue running your mouth here. https://www.psychreg.org/antidepressants-ssri-mass-shootings/
Madhatter – It’s a two way street though. The far left needs to stop bringing things up like “defunding the police” or “getting rid of school resource officers” . We need to change our gun laws…that is absolute truth. But the argument that many made on here not too long ago about reducing our police’s ability to respond and/or removing all police presence from schools is also wrong.
VOICE at 8:58 – “Take a young boy ….. give him some prescription medication….”
1) So, we shouldn’t give people suffering from mental health and medications? The right wing mantra (espoused by SAIL or CHIP or both, I don’t remember) is that the killers are being prescribed mental health meds unnecessarily (ie, over prescribed). Is that not what you’re saying? If not, then just remove the “over” from my comment.
2) I never said you said it “caused shootings”, I said “You claimed it is a cause.” A cause, as in “certainly a factor” (VOICE at 10:56am)
DUKE – yeah, I agree about defunding the police and removing SROs, but look at what happened with the cops the other day…. they didn’t do squat.
killing off a cult is as accurate as “breaking up a cult.”
Waco was a travesty and a crime. So was the 1985 bombing of MOVE.
VOICE – your link, well….. you do realize its about when the military was used to break up riots, right? These weren’t attempts by the government to oppress or in any way attack the civilian population. But yeah, it is cool to play “soldier” in your bunker and get all prepped up for this imaginary assault by our own government.
Godspeed you Modern Day Minutemen!
It’s killing me that the decision maker decided to hold back authorities – for a freaking hour. Kids bleeding out – other live kids that could have been killed. I also feel awful for the first responders that had to see all of this. I know hindsight and all – but breach that door and stop the threat.
And 100% agreed if 20 or 30 law enforcement officers are afraid of an 18 year old with an AR – then just wow.
The parents were begging to go in and do something since the police weren’t.
There has been enough inaccurate information and speculation spread here and on the news. Let’s wait until more information is out before casting such judgement on law enforcement. They are all about following their procedures and training, procedures can change as the situations changes i.e. an active shooter barricades himself inside a room.
CHIP – “registration of cars is not required nor a license.” Speechless. You’re just flat out lying now.
These statements are fact – not speculation or inaccurate information. And of course we are going to voice our concerns about the events that transpired. “Col. Steven McCraw said 19 officers waited outside a classroom door because a commanding officer “believed there was a barricaded subject and kids weren’t at risk.” “From the benefit of hindsight…it was the wrong decision,” admitted Texas Department of Public Safety director Col. Steven McGraw.
Wow. Those cops stood outside while 19 kids were murdered, calling 911 while they were out there, begging for help, parents outside trying to save their kids.
Every one of those cops was a coward.
If they aren’t going to put their lives on the line to protect children then what the hell are they there for.
Every. Single. One.
Families of Uvalde shooting victims are refusing to meet with the Governor of Texas – because he is sick, twisted and darkly shadowed by MAGA. GOP has completely become satanic.
Babycakes defending inaction. Typical MAGA sickness. The parents were begging to go in. The police screwed up – not all the police folks – but the decision maker, who should have handed off incident command. But man – yeah TV sure….
Please stop pretending to be the arbiter of “emotions” babycakes. Even the twisted governor said police screwed up. Not blaming it on the officers that were there – Many of them were begging to go in and even considering to go in and defy “orders” from an ill-equipped chief who oversaw 6 school officers that forcibly retained incident command. But yeah “F your feelings” right?
I know the Sheriff of Polk County FLA won’t get me any upvotes, but he said that his Deputies are required and trained to go in and confront a school shooter, even if they are alone. In training they hire actors dressed like Deputies dead, covered in blood- screaming in pain, wounded and his Deputies are trained to step over them and continue to engage.
We can argue about gun control, but I hope we can agree that in the interim law enforcement should be expected to go in and disregard personal safety or find another job
I just didn’t understand the narrative of some that this was a justification to get rid of police. That’s obviously insane. The guy in charge royally screwed up. Hopefully this is the one that finally tips the scales and we change our gun laws. Considering the mental health crisis that Covid shutdowns brought about in our youth… the time to act is now!!!
Duke – who, anywhere, on this thread is saying get rid of the police? The incident commander should have passed off his command. The officers wanted to storm the ground. Don’t take this misfortune to play cute politics.
To be factual, Republicans are cowards.
The GOP is morally bankrupt.
GT – I keep (repeatedly!) saying the police screwed up! They absolutely did. I’m just pointing my out that 1) much of the criticism seems to be on police in General (someone was suggesting their “overthrow”) and 2) in a chaotic scene with small town police, it’s not shocking that there was issues with decisiveness and effective (courageous) training. Nowhere am I defending the police officers decision. Just Noting that hindsight is 20/20 while pushing back on the narrative that some ave bizarrely taken that police in general are the problem and we need to get rid of them. A mass shooting is the ultimate tragic reminder that we need both gun control and a well trained, equipped and funded police force capable of responding to things such as this.
If you access said drug/mental health treatment you shouldn’t be able to buy or have a gun… period!